Revolutionary Marxism vs. Chomsky: Reflections on a Recent Interview

Recently The Nation published an interview with the great left intellectual Noam Chomsky by David Barsamian that first appeared on  Below I write up some critical reflections expanded from my notes in the margins of my print-off of this interview. They are I hope instructive on some of what distinguishes a modestly accomplished revolutionary Marxist (myself) from a legendary left thinker who identifies as a workerist left anarchist and tends towards social democratic reform in real world/real time politics. There is much in the interview that I agree with, of course, and I was struck (as always) by the precision and eloquence of Noam’s prose, reflections of a magnificent mind at work. For what’s it’s worth, it has long been my observation that Chomsky’s undeniable brilliance on matters of linguistics (the academic field he essentially re-made), United States (US) imperialism (so called “American foreign policy”), and corporate-imperial media control and propaganda (“manufacturing consent”) has led too many of his many fans and interviewers to mistakenly consider him an expert on just about everything else, including areas where he does not especially excel like Left/radical strategy and US domestic politics.

Against Class Reductionism

The title of the interview is “The Class War Never Ends, the Master Never Relents’: An Interview with Noam Chomsky.” I find this a bit odd. That’s because Barsamian and Chomsky talk about what Chomsky calls the “proto-fascist” (more on that term below) attack on “what’s left of democracy” – an assault notable in Chomsky’s words for its “white supremacy, racism, misogyny, Christianity, anti-abortion rights” (Chomsky’s words).  Clearly, then, we are dealing also with race war, gender war, religious war, and culture war, and an overall war on democracy. These attacks are taking place in a class rule society and fuel divisions that serve the capitalist ruling class, of course, but they do not simply reduce to “class war.”

So the title smacks of class reductionism, which, as Tatiana Cozzarelli wrote on Left Voice two years ago, “is the belief”  – common among US social democrats in the Bernie Sanders and DSA modes – “that class causes all oppression and, in turn, that economic changes are enough to resolve all forms of oppression.”  In reality serious radical thinkers from Marx and Engels through and beyond Lenin ( to mention some communist revolutionaries who seem to have never particularly impressed the avowed “anarchist” Chomsky) have always been concerned with the dialectical interaction between class and other oppression structures, rejecting in advance the contemporary caricaturized debate between bourgeois identity politicos who say “race, gender, sexual orientation, disability” and “Marxists” who  say “class, class, class, class.”

It is of course unfair to accuse Chomsky (hereafter “NC”) of economistic class reductionism because of an interview title likely generated by The Nation and/or Barsamian. NC is of course quite conscious of other forms of oppression, most obviously imperial and military oppression. Still, there’s a definite economistic and class reductionist tilt evident in the interview, consistent with NC’s past attachment to the classically revisionist and reformist Sanders and with NC’s occasional tendency to exaggerate the working-class and potentially social democratic content behind the racist, sexist, and indeed (as NC has resisted acknowledging) fascist Trump phenomenon.

David Barsamian: What we are facing is often described as unprecedented—a pandemic, climate catastrophe and, always lurking off center stage, nuclear annihilation. Three of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

Noam Chomsky: I can add a fourth: the impending destruction of what remains of American democracy and the shift of the United States toward a deeply authoritarian, also proto-fascist, state, when the Republicans come back into office, which looks likely. So that’s four horses… And remember that the Republicans are the denialist party, committed to racing to climate destruction with abandon in the hands of the chief wrecker they now worship like a demigod. It’s bad news for the United States and for the world, given the power of this country.”

Street:  Yes, things look dark indeed on the current US political trajectory, without a mass movement on an actual Left, but do we really need the “proto-” before the “fascism” now? Headed by a blood-libel QANazi who tried to overthrow bourgeois democracy (more on that term below) and constitutional rule of law in 2020-21, the Republicans (likely to return to triple-branch federal power by 2025) are bona-fide fascists, no prefixes required. For my latest essays (two of many more) on this topic, please see this and this. Feel free also (and especially) to consult my 2021 book This Happened Here: Amerikaners, Neoliberals, and the Trumping of America.  In that volume readers will discover one of a number of differences that my fellow Routledge author Anthony DiMaggio, author of Rising Fascism in America: It Can Happen Here, and I have with NC (and many other academics and intellectuals) on “the F-word”: a critical emphasis on the centrality of white supremacism and white nationalism. In our opinion, NC’s understanding of the term fascism and why it supposedly (in NC’s view) did not apply to the Trump presidency was excessively attached to (among other things) the classic 20th Century  historical model of the Third Reich and – oddly enough for anyone who has read Hitler’s virulently racist autobiography Mein Kampf and Hitler’s 1930s political speeches – to a significantly class-reductionist, outdated, and overly political-economistic understanding of the disease, with racism and other key traits given mistakenly short shrift. (An essential anti-racist intervention against older white male Western academics’ fixation on the classic 20th Century versions of fascism in understanding the political pathology’s 21st Century revival can be found also in Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective’s brilliant volume White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism. See also Jason Stanley’s 2018 study How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them for an important description of ten key and signficantly racialized politico-ideological narratives in contemporary and past fascism).

Warning about a “shift toward” authoritarianism and “proto-” fascism is quite an historical understatement.  A good study here is Carl Boggs’s chilling volume, Fascism Old and New: American Politics at the Crossroads (Routledge, 2018). Boggs details the United States’ many-sided drift toward fascism over many decades. He explores the drift’s deep roots in the main classist, racist, sexist, imperialist, militarist, corporatist, and Christian-fundamentalist currents of US-American history.

The US is already “a deeply authoritarian” and perhaps even “proto-fascist state” under the unelected dictatorship of capitalism-imperialism. Becoming a fascist state would take authoritarianism to a new and horrific level, of course, making it yet more difficult (as NC suggests) to tackle the first three horsemen.

To the Battle Stations?

It seems worth noting that the United States being just a partly or “proto-” fascist state (as it may already be) is (as NC also suggests) a much bigger deal than 1930s Germany becoming (as it did) a/the fully consolidated classically fascist and genocidal state.  The United States is the most powerful and dangerous nation in world history. With more than 800 military bases in over 100 countries and enough nuclear weapons to blow up the world many times over, the reach of its empire and its capacity to destroy life on Earth dwarfs the dark power of the Third Reich or any other previous nation state.  It has long stood in the vanguard of the “fossil-capitalist” and now increasingly “fossil fascist” (Malm and the Zetkin Collective’s terms) project of turning the entire planet into a giant Greenhouse Gas Chamber (a crime that would have horrified Hitler). Its reckless provocation of the nuclear-armed fascist and imperialist Vladimir Putin (a topic on which NC has provided essential and brilliant insight) — himself very much the product of US-led Western imperial economic and military aggression in post-Soviet Eastern Europe — has currently brought the world to the most perilous moment of potential thermonuclear annihilation since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Saying that the USA “looks likely” to turn “proto-fascist” (fascist?) would seem to be a call to popular battle stations, no? So where is the urgent call for mass mobilization and flooding the streets and public squares with millions of outraged citizens – people (of all classes) who care about the future of humanity? Nothing of this sort is remotely apparent in the Barsamian-NC discussion.

“Bad news” is quite the understatement! This is no time for understatement.

I know it must sound unduly buoyant to many amidst current stormy, starboard-leaning seas, but how about we climb down from our Mandarin perches and watchmen’s towers to enter the fray and struggle to make some good and revolutionary news? How about we try to change these potential Nightmare Years (to use the title of William Shirer’s memoir of reporting on German politics during and after Hitler’s rise to power) into Liberation Years? More on this wild-eyed proposition (in relation to NC and a long dead Italian communist) in Part 2.

Getting the Republi-fascists and Democrats Wrong in Class Reductionist Ways

Barsamian: The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance just issued the Global State of Democracy Report 2021. It says that the United States is a country where democracy is “backsliding.”

Chomsky: Very severely. The Republican Party is openly dedicated—it’s not even concealed—to undermining what remains of American democracy. They’re working very hard on it. Since the days of Richard Nixon, the Republicans have long understood that they’re fundamentally a minority party and not going to get votes by advertising their increasingly open commitment to the welfare of the ultrarich and the corporate sector. So they’ve been long diverting attention to so-called cultural issues…white supremacy…other issues. It’s now the virtual definition of the party: So let’s run on attacking “critical race theory”—whatever that means! It’s a cover term, as their leading spokesmen have explained, for everything they can rally the public on: white supremacy, racism, misogyny, Christianity, anti-abortion rights…

Street: I see all this somewhat differently. The Nixon-era Republicans thought of themselves as “the silent majority” and meant it. The Republicans’ explicit sense of themselves as a demographic and electoral minority party is more recent.  It reflects their reading of white US-Americans’ projected coming minority status and the fact that they’ve lost the popular vote in seven if not all of the last eight US presidential elections.

“Increasingly open commitment to the welfare of the ultrarich and the corporate sector” is not accurate.  Consistent with a main current in fascist politics, Trump in 2016 ran as something of a “populist” (fake, to be sure), claiming to speak for the working-class heartland against the globalist financial and corporate sector.  This was a great deception, of course: his first major “accomplishment” was a huge tax cut for the wealthy Few and his administration undertook massive economic and environmental deregulation that served “the billionaire class”/One Percent while degrading the common good.  But no, the Trump-era MAGA Republifascists make great if disingenuous efforts to pose as champions of the broad working- and middle-class majority against the globalist corporate and financial elite, which they (consistent with longstanding fascist ideology) absurdly merge with the supposed menace of “socialism.”

A better take on our current neoliberal era is that the Democrats’ “increasingly open commitment to the welfare of the ultrarich and the corporate sector” (starting during the second half of Jimmy Carter’s administration and fully consolidating under “progressive neoliberal” Bill Clinton presidency) ate up much of the Republicans’ old centrist space. This left the rightmost major increasingly reliant on far-right racist, nativist, and sexist politics, funded in  part by revanchist billionaires who profited from deregulation and regressive tax cuts.

I find it distressing that NC says “whatever that means!” about Critical Race Theory” (CRT).  It’s quite true that the Republi-fascists use CRT as cover for a many-sided right-wing assault, but there’s nothing mysterious or difficult to grasp about CRT, whose basic tenets ought to be uncontroversial: race is not “biologically grounded and natural” but is instead a socially constructed category used to oppress and exploit people of color; racism is not an aberration, but a normalized feature of American society, including but hardly limited to its legal system. There are reasonable class analysis (Marxist and/or left anarchist) criticisms to make of CRT but there is nothing obscure about its tenets and its opening suppositions are obviously accurate.

Racism, sexism (at the heart of the war on abortion), nativism, homophobia, and Christian fundamentalism vs. secularism need to be understood as more than just “diversionary cultural issues” meant to divide the populace and distract it from the class struggle. They are real historical and material fractures with significant relatively autonomous significance even as they are intimately tied up with the underlying capitalism-imperialist order. Racism needs to be opposed as racism.  Sexism needs to be opposed as sexism. Bourgeois politicos oppose or pretend to oppose these forms of oppression without making the essential connections to capitalist class rule and empire – and without understanding that they can’t be overcome under the capitalist-imperialist system. (Indeed, they tend to absurdly disappear class altogether, making it impossible for them to meaningfully understand and oppose racism, sexism, homophobia and anti-transgenderism.)  Communists and other progressively minded people can and must make the class and empire connections and indeed show that racism, sexism, and nativism cannot ultimately be defeated under the capitalist-imperialist system.

On Fascist Replacement Theory (FRT)

DB: We all saw what happened in Washington on January 6th. Do you see the possibility of civil unrest spreading? There are multiple militias across the country. Representative Paul Gosar, of the great state of Arizona, and Representative Lauren Boebert, of the great state of Colorado, among others, have made threatening statements inciting violence and hatred. The Internet is rife with conspiracy theories. What must we do?

NC: It is very serious. In fact, maybe a third or so of Republicans think it may be necessary to use force to “save our country,” as they put it. “Save our country” has a clear meaning. If anyone didn’t understand it, Trump issued a call to people to mobilize to prevent the Democrats from swamping this country with criminals being let out of jails in other lands, lest they “replace” white Americans and carry out the destruction of America. The “great replacement” theory—that’s what “take away our country” means and it’s being used effectively by proto-fascist elements, Trump being the most extreme and most successful.

Street: This is dead-on but here I would critically add that “great replacement theory” is full-on fascist – we can drop the “proto-” – and goes back to the Nazis. To say that it is “being used effectively by proto-fascist elements” is quite an understatement.  It is a key part of fascist ideology and politics in Europe and in the United States, whose racist and genocidal practices inspired Adolf Hitler.

Sentimentalizing the American Labor Movement and the Old Revisionist Ways

Chomsky: What can we do about it? The only tools available, like it or not, are education and organization. There’s no other way. It means trying to revive an authentic labor movement of the kind that, in the past, was in the forefront of moves toward social justice. It also means organizing other popular movements, carrying out educational efforts to combat the murderous anti-vaccine campaigns now going on, making sure that there are serious efforts to deal with the climate crisis, mobilizing against the bipartisan commitment to increase dangerous military spending and provocative actions against China, which could lead to a conflict nobody wants and end up in a terminal war.

You just have to keep working on this. There is no other way.

Street: Thumbs up to “other popular movements” and mobilizing agaist terminal war, but the call for “reviving” a past US labor movement is distressing. With all due respect for the Molly Maguires, the Haymarket Martyrs, the Industrial Workers of the World, Sacco and Vanzetti (all brutally crushed), and the leftish labor offshoots that NC fondly recalls from the US mass production and New Deal eras, the dominant trend in US-American labor history by far and away has been what the onetime University of Wisconsin economist Selig Perlman called “job conscious” and “pure and simple” trade unionism.  Organized U.S. labor – now down to less than 1 in 10 US employees – has long been mainly about the economistic pursuit of a better wage and benefit deal within the capitalist-imperialist system for workers with strategic marketplace and workplace bargaining power. It’s been mainly about getting a slightly bigger if small slice of the imperialist pie for a fraction of the nation’s wage-earners. This has reflected and encouraged imperial and nationalist chauvinism on the part of its bureaucratic officials and much of union membership. Labor misleaders have long worked to marginalize and purge those working-class activists who wanted the labor movement to be about social justice, anti-imperialism, democracy, and environmental sanity, not to mention revolution. The US labor movement has never been about seriously challenging the underlying unelected and interrelated dictatorships of capital and empire, the leading oppression structures that create the four horseman the Barsamian-NC discussion started with.

US labor history has validated Lenin’s critique of the trade union mindset, which seeks more crumbs for workers under the dominant capitalist-imperialist system when the real task – as Lenin (who NC mistakenly calls a “counter-revoltionary”) argued — is to enlist the proletariat in the cause of liberating humanity. Revolutionary Marxists, Lenin explained in What is to be Done?, aspire to be “people’s tribunes” who “react to every manifestation of tyranny and oppression, no matter where it appears” rather than social democratish “trade union secretaries” who focus on getting an incremental bit “more” (to use the leading US labor aristocrat Samuel Gompers’ actual description of “what labor wants”) for (some) working-class people under the capitalist empire.

“Education and organization”…for the (futile) pursuit of meaningful reforms within the reigning class rule order and its multiple “intersectional” oppression systems – a slightly better cut for some oppressed people – or for the revolutionary overthrow of the system that is wrecking livable ecology, spreading pandemics, re-enslaving women (more on that in Part 2), fueling racial and ethnic division, bringing us to the brink of nuclear war, and moving world history’s most powerful and dangerous nation from constitutional bourgeois democracy to not-so “proto-” fascism?

“We just have to keep working on this.” Really?  Let’s ask the “Dr. Phil question”:  how’s that been working for us? It’s long past time to take a ruthlessly honest look at how far (not very!) the old economistic, workerist/revisionist, reformist, and frankly passive, anti-revolutionary and anti-communist ways of “working on this” have gotten us. It’s not a pretty story: these ways — and the bloodless Mandarin remove (and the related cowardice) of many intellectuals and academics — are parts of how we now stand on the precipice of annihilation at the hands of the four horsemen.

When what is to be done gets largely reduced to reviving a largely mythical past US “social justice” labor movement (a movement whose former workplace and community social bases have for the most part disappeared) you know that left sights are being disastrously lowered. Surely we can and must aim for more daring and revoltionary heights as the capitalist-imperialist system brings us to the brink of annihilation.

On the Dismal Neoliberal Dems

Barsamian: In the background is extreme inequality, which is off the charts. Why is the United States so unequal?

Chomsky: A lot of this has happened in the last 40 years as part of the neoliberal assault on America in which the Democrats, too, have participated, though not to the extent of the Republicans.

Street: Whatever we call its changing eras – and neoliberalism has real historical meaning and coherence – this is capitalism, which is by definition about the upward concentration of wealth and power.  The bourgeois system creates the basic underlying context for fascism by rendering politicians’ democratic promises laughable while at the same creating an endless series of crises that call for big government intervention. (Please see my most recent previous Substack for elaboration on this problem.)

Saying that the Dems have not participated in “the neoliberal [capitalist] assault” to the same extent as the Republicans probably obscures more than it illuminates.  A basic calling card and defining hallmark of capitalism’s neoliberal phase in the US is the nearly complete capture of the formerly New Deal Democratic Party by corporate and financial power. That capture, consolidated under Bill Clinton, the champion of welfare “reform” and NAFTA, is probably the more decisive participation. It also provides critical context for the Republicans’ qualitative leap from bourgeois democracy (more on that term below) to not-so “proto” fascism in this century, for the Democrats’ swallowing up of much of the rightmost major party’s centrist business and professional class ballast helped compel the Republicans to move further and disastrously to retain partisan relevance and identity.

“There’s Still Plenty to Do” for Women’s Rights: Did NC Get the News About Dobbs v. Jackson?

Barsamian: Corporate power seems unstoppable. The über class of gazillionaires—Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, and Elon Musk—are now flying into outer space. But I’m reminded of something that the novelist Ursula K. Le Guin said some years ago: “We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable.” And then she added, “So did the divine right of kings.”

Chomsky: So did slavery. So did the principle that women are property, which lasted in the United States until the 1970s. So did laws against miscegenation so extreme that even the Nazis wouldn’t accept them, which lasted in the United States until the 1960s. All kinds of horrors have existed. Over time, their power has been eroded but never completely eliminated. Slavery was abolished, but its remnants remain in new and vicious forms. It’s not slavery, but it’s horrifying enough. The idea that women are not persons has not only been formally overcome, but to a substantial extent in practice, too. Still, there’s plenty to do.

Street: There’s plenty to say on this but let’s focus just on the comment on women: “The idea that women are not persons has not only been formally overcome, but to a substantial extent in practice, too. Still, there’s plenty to do.” Did NC miss the Christian fascist Supreme Court Dobbs v. Jackson decision, which signed on to the effective re-imposition of female bondage? Please see my September 26th Substack and my October 10th Substack for merely partial surveys of the post-Dobbs horror being inflicted on women and girls. My fellow Rise Up 4 Abortion Rights volunteers and I are quite serious when we say that “forced motherhood is female enslavement.” Talk about bringing back the supposedly “formally overcome” idea that “women are not persons”!

“There’s plenty to do” takes understatement to a new level. Again, where is the call for millions in the streets and public squares, the call for mass action to restore women’s critical and unapolgetic right to safe and legal abortions in the USA?

“The Constitutional System”

Chomsky: The constitutional system was a step forward in the 18th century. Even the phrase “We the people” terrified the autocratic rulers of Europe, deeply concerned that the evils of democracy (what was then called republicanism) could spread and undermine civilized life. Well, it did spread—and civilized life continued, even improved. So, yes, there are periods of regression and of progress, but the class war never ends, the masters never relent. They’re always looking for every opportunity and, if they’re the only participants in class struggle, we will indeed have regression. But they don’t have to be, any more than in the past.

Street: Perhaps it terrified European monarchs and aristocrats, but the US constitutional system has been a remarkably durable and darkly reactionary straight-jacket on democracy, precisely what it was designed to be by its militantly propertarian, slave-owning, merchant capitalist, and land-grabbing framers (as NC knows), who feared and hated the new republic’s propertyless and property-poor majority. I have written about this at length: please see thisthis, and this for starters. “Civilized life” did not exactly improve for Black people in the USA during the first half of the 19th Century, which saw the vicious spread of the torture-based but highly profitable capitalist system of Black chattel slavery across a rolling, blood-soaked frontier of mass forced cotton labor camps in the southern states. It took a giant bloody and extra-constitutional Civil War to end Black slavery, which was largely re-imposed in the South under new names and with constitutional protection after the bloody white-supremacist defeat of Reconstruction.  It’s for nothing that the great US abolitionist William Loyd Garrison used to call the Constitution “a covenant with death” while burning the document in public.  It’s always good to read Frederick Douglass’s famous July 5th 1852 speech “What to the Slave is the Meaning of the Fourth of July?” before writing about the virtues of US constitutionalism.

This is not just about class. A radical Marxist or left anarchist does not descend into bourgeois identity politics and culturalism when they point out that the people’s war with “the masters” involves more than class struggle. The American laborite and social democratic “left” has long been plagued by an economistic and class essentialist fetish under whose influence it can’t quite fully process the role of race and gender – and can’t appreciate the centrality of patriarchy and white supremacy to capitalist rule.  (I say this as a communist and longtime labor historian who has tried to organize workers in numerous wage-earning positions and who aspires to help create what Marxists have long called “the dictatorship of the proletariat” – the transitional socialist state required to defeat capitalist counterrevolution and permit the emergence of a world beyond class rule.)

I’m Fine with “Bourgeois Democracy”      

DB: In your Masters of Mankind book, you have an essay, “Can Civilization Survive Really Existing Capitalism?” You write, “Really existing capitalist democracy—RECD for short (pronounced ‘wrecked’)” is “radically incompatible” with democracy and add that “it seems to me unlikely that civilization can survive really existing capitalism and the sharply attenuated democracy that goes along with it. Could functioning democracy make a difference? Consideration of nonexistent systems can only be speculative, but I think there’s some reason to think so.” Tell me your reasons.

NC: First of all, we live in this world, not in some world we would like to imagine. And in this world, if you simply think about the timescale for dealing with environmental destruction, it’s far shorter than the time that would be necessary to carry out the significant reshaping of our basic institutions. That doesn’t mean you have to abandon the attempt to do so. You should be doing that all the time—working on ways to raise consciousness, raise understanding, and build the rudiments of future institutions in the present society.

At the same time, the measures to save us from self-destruction will have to take place within the basic framework of existing institutions—some modification of them without fundamental change. And it can be done. We know how it can be done.

Meanwhile, work should continue on overcoming the problem of RECD, really existing capitalist democracy, which in its basic nature is a death sentence and also deeply inhuman in its fundamental properties. So, let’s work on that, and at the same time, ensure that we save the possibility of achieving it by overcoming the immediate and urgent crisis we face.

Street: I do not feel the need to re-invent the terminological wheel with phrases like “really existing capitalist democracy.” I get the cleverness of RECD, pronounced as “wrecked” and shrewdly signaling that capitalism cancels democracy (it does). But I’m okay with revolutionary Marxism’s longtime understanding of “bourgeois democracy” as the freedom of capitalists to own and control the means of production, investment, and distribution along with – to quote the onetime Revolutionary Union (RU) from half a century ago – “the right to fill the airwaves and daily newspapers with their propaganda and lies and to use them freely to debate with each other. For the capitalists,” the RU noted, “elections are a way to settle differences among themselves, while making it look like everybody has equal say…The bourgeoisie is no more willing to share power with the majority of people than it is to share the ownership of the means of production and the wealth that comes from this.” RECD is nothing new. It is the basic historical context for the rise of “late fascism” (Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective’s useful term) in the US and elsewhere today.

Sorry, but Revolution is Required: The Anarchy of Capital Cancels Humanity

I certainly share Chomsky’s concern with the seeming disconnect between the time required for the overthrow of capitalism and the time required to avert environmental catastrophe.  But is he correct to say that this and other existential catastrophes can be averted “within the basic framework of existing institutions”?  I doubt this very much. The bourgeois/“RECD”/profits/ capitalist system is fundamentally addicted both to relentless, eco-cidal expansion and indeed (and less abstractly) to fossil fuels, in which “late capitalism” has a massive sunk investment. (An essential reflection on this difficult topic is Raymond Lotta, “50 Years Since Earth Day 1: Reflections on the Catastrophe That Is Capitalism-Imperialism,” Revolution, April 27, 2020.) Like it or not, the name of the Revolutionary Communist Party’s weekly YouTube show is dead on: “Revolution, Nothing Less.” As Che Guevera used to say, “it’s not my fault that reality is Marxist.”

Here again we need more proper attention to the Marxist tradition and in this case specifically to Marx, for whom the major contradictions of capitalism included not just class struggle between owners and workers but also the constant competitive struggle of capital vs. capital – the key driving force behind both the constant cancerous and eco-exterminist assault on a livable natural environment and the recurrently bloody and now potentially thermonuclear-exterminist conflict between different capitalist-imperialist states.  In Marx’s work, the critical contradiction is not only capital vs. proletariat; just as significant is the “anarchy of capital” resulting from the constant competitive intra-capitalst struggle over the division the world’s natural and social spoils. In the absence of the organized revolutionary proletariat that Marx thought would become capitalism’s gravedigger (and which Marx struggled to organize, learn from, and lead), the chaotic scuffle of capital v. capital – reflected in conflicts capitalist-imperialist states (e.g, the U.S. and Russia in Ukraine) – is by far and away the biggest underlying driving force in the historical process under what NC has called the “bourgeois system of socioeconomic management.”  Combined with the maddening number of governments in a world capitalist system characterized by a single global economy and a multiplicity of nation states, the modern capitalist order is a fatal barrier to the species-wide planning and policy required to refashion humanity’s relationship with the rest of nature and within “the web of life.”  An international people’s eco-socialist revolution is required, like it or not. I know this is irritating to hear for many smart and caring environmentalists who are fighting heroically to try to avert ecocide under “this world” of “really existing capitalism” (REC). But REC is terminal cancer, really existing death to a decent future, as some Earth Scientists have dared to note. It needs to be radically replaced by eco-socialism as soon as possible if the human experiment is not to be brought to a miserable conclusion.

It’s like Marx and his financial planner Frederick Engels wrote in 1848: either “a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large” or “the common ruin” of all.

Mis-appropriating “Leading Left Labor Activist” Antonio Gramsci

Barsamian:  There are multiple mentions of Antonio Gramsci in two of your most recent books ….specifically, of his comment, “The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.” Right now, though, the quote of his I’d like you to address is: “Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.” Talk about his relevance today and the meaning of that quote…[Also…] In these dark times, it’s difficult for many to feel that there’s a bright future ahead. You’re always asked, what gives you hope? And I have to ask you the same question.

NC: Gramsci was a leading left labor activist in Italy around the late teens, early 1920s. He was very active in organizing left worker collectives. In Italy, the fascist government took over in the early 1920s. One of its first acts was to send Gramsci to prison. During his trial, the prosecutor stated: We have to silence this voice…So, he was sent to prison.

While there, he wrote his Prison Notebooks. He wasn’t silenced, though the public couldn’t read him…In the early 1930s, he wrote that the old world was collapsing, while the new world had not yet risen and that, in the interim, they were facing morbid symptoms. Mussolini was one, Hitler another. Nazi Germany almost conquered large parts of the world. We came very close to that. The Russians defeated Hitler. Otherwise, half the world would probably have been run by Nazi Germany. But it was very close. Morbid symptoms were visible everywhere.

The adage you quoted, “Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will,” which became famous, came from the period when he was still able to publish. In his spirit, we must look at the world reasonably, without illusions, understand it, decide how to act, and recognize that there are grim portents. There are very dangerous things happening. That’s pessimism of the intellect. At the same time, we need to recognize that there are ways out, real opportunities. So, we have optimism of the will, meaning, we dedicate ourselves to using all the opportunities available—and they do exist—while working to overcome the morbid symptoms and move toward a more just and decent world.

…One thing that gives me hope is that people are struggling hard under very severe circumstances, much more severe than we can imagine, all over the world to achieve rights and justice. They don’t give up hope, so we certainly can’t.

The other is that there’s simply no option. The alternative is to say, OK, I’ll help the worst to happen. That’s one choice. The other is to say, I’ll try to do the best I can, what the farmers in India are doing, what poor and miserable peasants in Honduras are doing, and many others like them around the world. I’ll do that as best I can. And maybe we can get to a decent world in which people can feel that they can live without shame. A better world.

That’s not much of a choice, so we should be able to easily make it.

Street: What a banal and understated characterization of Antonio Gramsci! There’s some technical semi-accuracy to NC’s description of the (early) Gramsci, but it is absurd to try to make the great Italian communist theorist of ideological hegemony into a onetime syndicalist trade unionist. Gramsci was a leading and Leninist Italian Communist Party member who travelled to the early Soviet Union, where he met his wife and sharpened his dedication to Bolshevik-inspired communist revolution in Italy. He returned from Bolshevik Russia determined to build a Leninist vanguard party in his home country.

NC’s idea of the communist Gramsci as a lefty “labor activist” into workers’ collectives strikes me as attempted ideological appropriation on the part of an anarchist-identified progressive intellectual (NC) who has always stood critically aloof from the history of Marxist thought and writing and the international communist movement – to the point of preposterously calling the great revolutionary Lenin a “counterrevolutionary.”

Also suggestive of anarcho-anti-communism is NC’s statement that “the Russians defeated Hitler” and “otherwise half the world would have been ruled by Nazi Germany.”  That is technically accurate, but the deeper truth is that the socialist (if authoritarian) Soviet Union defeated the Third Reich and thereby saved half of humanity from fascist and genocidal tyranny. No Stalin love here, but the Soviet state created by the revolution of workers, soldiers, and peasants that Lenin and his fellow Bolsheviks led permitted “the Russians” to crush a German military far more formidable than the German army Tsarist Russia could not defeat.

Also, how was Gramsci “not silenced” when the public could not hear or read him as he passed his final years sick and dying in a fascist prison?

Pessimism of the Intellect vs. Optimism of the Will

I dissent from the praise NC gives to Gramsci’s self-cancelling aphorism “pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will.” This oft-quoted maxim posits a false separation between the mind and cognition on one hand and the heart and body on the other hand. Pessimistic thoughts do not fuel engaged action.  They tend rather to discourage activism.  They fuel surrender, depression, passivity, lethargy, and a mindset of “oh well.” This is so psychologically and bio-chemically obvious that it seems astonishing to have to point it out.

Radical analysis of the dark future – the ride of the apocalyptic horsemen that NC and Barsamian talked about at the beginning of their discussion – we face under capitalism-imperialism is premised on the actually optimistic belief that our fellow humans are capable of hearing about and acting upon the grave menaces we confront. The point of bringing up potential bleak futures likely to arrive without revolutionary transformation is to highlight the need for and point the way to alternative paths of liberation and revolution that can steer humanity clear of catastrophe.

NC says he finds hope in the facts (a) that people continue to struggle against (one presumes) “the masters” (the ruling class) and (b) that people “have no choice” but to resist if humanity is going to live to see a decent future. But what exactly should we be fighting to achieve? And shouldn’t we try to be specific about what we want and need going forward, something more inspiring and tangible than “no choice” but to make reforms under the existing imperial class rule system (with a vague eye to an egalitarian future someday over the rainbow)?  How about a socialist revolution that takes us beyond the multiply oppressive and eco-exterminist capitalist-imperialist order and towards a classless society matched to our best human nature and potential?  I have always found NC’s reluctance (based on the false premise that doing so is inherently authoritarian) to say much of anything about Lenin’s 1902 question What is to be Done? as the partial squandering of a brilliant mind and a step back from what NC calls “the moral responsibility of intellectuals.”  We need great thinkers to advance radical and revolutionary deas on the ways out of our capitalist-imperialist and “proto-fascist”/fascist mess.  And it would be good if they would think less in terms of the dysfunctional Gramsci maxim and more in the way of at once dialectical and optimistic reflection on the potentially beautiful and liberating dimensions of our dark situation.

I can already see US “left” eyes rolling and brows furrowing as I quote something the Revolutionary Community Party’s longtime leader Bob Avakian wrote in 2015.  So be it.  Here goes: “There is the potential for something of unprecedented beauty to arise out of unspeakable ugliness.” Two years ago, Avakian, no academic mandarin, wrote this : “Something Terrible or Something Truly Emancipating…This is one of those rare times and circumstances when revolution becomes possible, not just because this system is always a horror, but because the crisis and deep divisions in society now can only be resolved through radical means, of one kind or another—either radically reactionary, murderously oppressive and destructive means or radically emancipating revolutionary means.”

In all fairness, it should be acknowledged Chomsky seems to agree with my critique of the “famous” Gramsci maxim when he says this: “we need to recognize that there are ways out, real opportunities… we dedicate ourselves to using all the opportunities available—and they do exist—while working to overcome the morbid symptoms and move toward a more just and decent world.”  Yes, that’s not just “optimism of the will.”  Those are cognitions, reflecting some optimism of the mind.

“The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born,” Gramsci wrote from the depressing confines of Mussolini’s prison. Yes, the old – here in the US previously normative bourgeois democracy and rule of law (no small mater!) – is dying (this is the topic of my next Substack).  But who says that “the new cannot be born”?  It is being born. It will be something terrible, revanchist, and fascist or, perhaps, something beautiful, revolutionary, and socialist.  To claim that the desirable “new cannot be born” is to trump radical will (heart, emotion, readiness for engaged collective action) with the pessimistic mental slavery of “there is no alternative” (TINA).

“Chomsky’s Wager” is Much Better

Which way things turn is up to us to no small extent.  And here’s where I stand in rich agreement with NC: it’s not about the crystal ball. It’s about the Left version of “Pascal’s bargain” – once dubbed “Chomsky’s Wager” by my old ZNet comrade Mike McGehee: whatever the chances of success or failure may be (that’s a question for Mandarins and oddsmakers, not revolutionaries), we must act to increase the prospects for revolutionary progress. As Chomsky put things in an interview many years ago:

“I think an objective observer, from Mars, let’s say, looking at the human species would conclude that they’re an evolutionary error—that they’re designed in such a way that leads them to destroy themselves, probably much else along with them. That would be a rational conclusion. We can decide whether that conclusion is right or wrong. Fate: that choice is in our hands. I don’t think it’s a question of optimism or pessimism. But do we make the choice, the effort, to show that what looks like a rational conclusion is nevertheless mistaken? That’s up to us.”

Indeed. A desirable new must be born. And another world is possible, as Chomsky knows (“there are ways out, real opportunities”).  Shall we mourn the death of the old worn-out and used-up bourgeois democracy (NC’s “RECD”) and meekly tell people to “just keep on working” in worn-out and used-up ways that never embraced the revolutionary transformations our times require (and that past times required) – citing the supposed “social justice” vanguard that was the purportedly “authentic” US labor movement of old as a/the way forward – without seeing the death of the bourgeois old as an opportunity to make a beautiful socialist new? No! Let’s make it so that future generations living without “masters” (of race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, and empire as well as class) look back on the current period as proof of the old proverb that “it’s always darkest before the dawn.” If that sounds romantic and voluntarist, so be it. The proverb has traditionally been understood to counsel “perseverance through hard times.”  But persevering in the old revisionist ways, as in “you just have to keep working on this” to get more and better things and policies under the terminally cancerous capitalist-imperialist order will not get the job done. We’re better than that and we must raise our sights to new revolutionary heights, crazy as that sounds to many even and perhaps especially on what passes for “the left” in the USA.

This essay appeared in two parts on The Paul Street Report last week. I have altered a few sub-headings and a sentence or two. Happy Halloween!

Paul Street’s latest book is This Happened Here: Amerikaners, Neoliberals, and the Trumping of America (London: Routledge, 2022).