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September
18, 2001
Davey
D Talks to Rep. Barbara Lee
A Lone Voice of Dissent
[This interview with Rep. Barbara
Lee was conducted by our friend Davey D, editor of the excellent
newsletter on Hip Hop and politics, FNV. Please visit Davey's
site and please sign up for his newsletter.
http://www.daveyd.com -AC/JSC]
On Monday Sept 17th we had an opportunity
to catch up with Congresswoman Barbara Lee and talk to her about
her decision to cast the only vote opposing President Bush's
War resolution. Not even her fellow colleagues from the Congressional
Black Caucus voted with her on this one. That includes such
notable people like Maxine Waters, Charles Rengel, Jesse Jackson
Jr., Cynthia McKinney to name a few. What is this all about?
Is Congresswoman Lee out of
step with reality and the rest of the country? Or is she ahead
of her time? Some people are saying she is unpatriotic for not
supporting Bush on this one. They are angry with her to the
point that she now needs police protection. Others are saying
she did the right thing by not only following her conscience,
but also bringing to the floor and public discussions, an alternative
viewpoint that has been all but locked out of this past week's
conversations. Many are claiming something is wrong with you
if you are not advocating war. Here's what Congresswoman had
to say...Let us know what you think.
DAVEY D: They took this vote in Congress about
what should be the response to the tragedy this week...and elected
to take military action. In a vote 420 to 1 you were the lone
dissenting voice that said no, we should not go to war.
BARBARA
LEE: First, our nation
is in grieving, we're all mourning, we're angry; there are a
range of emotions taking place. Myself personally, I am also
grieving and I believe fully and firmly that the Congress of
the United States is the only legislative body that can say,
"Let's pause for a moment...and let's look at using some
restraint before we rush to action." Because military action
can lead to an escalation and spiral out of control. So, why
I voted no, was one, the president already has the authority
to execute a military action. He doesn't need Congress; under
the War Powers Act he has that authority. But Congress is the
people's house, and the Congress is responsible for providing
checks and balances, and you cannot ju st allow the administration
to run ahead with a strategy without reporting back and without
having some oversight.
Now we must bring the perpetrators
to justice. International terrorism is upon us -- this is a
new world and we cannot make any mistakes in dealing with it.
We do not want to see our reaction lead to another reaction
which could allow this to spiral out of control. So while we
grieve and while we provide assistance -- and I did vote to provide
assistance for the families and communities that have been devastated
and also providing funding for anti-terrorist activities for
securing our own country -- we've got to conduct a full investigation
and be really deliberate about how we move forward militarily.
We cannot make any mistake about this, this is an unconventional
war and we have to fight it in an unconventional way.
DAVEY D: We're talking about the nature of
terrorism and whether it could be a tit-for-tat type of scenario
if we go out and retaliate and hit the wrong targets or capture
the wrong people, the next thing you know we could be involved
in a situation where a can of worms has been opened that we just
can't close it up.
BARBARA
LEE: We don't know
the real nature of terrorism in the true sense of the word.
We have not invested in combating terrorism the way we should
have, which involves many issues. It involves our foreign policy,
it involves multinational cooperation, it involves diplomatic
efforts. It involves pulling all of these very multifaceted
areas together to come up with a real way to deal with terrorism.
I don't believe we have faced the fact that terrorism is the
new war that this country is going to have to fight. We're looking
at putting up billions of dollars for national missile defense.
Well, anti-ballistic missiles -- that would not have saved the
lives or prevented the horrible morning that we saw last Tuesday,
it just wouldn't have done it. So, we're looking at putting
military money into the wrong areas. We need to look at what
this means in terms of securing our country, securing our world,
and how to use our tax dollars toward that purpose. I am convinced
that military action alone will not prevent further terrorist
attacks.
DAVEY D: One of things I'm concerned about
is the number of people of color who will be on these front lines.
A third of the army is made up of people of color, because of
the economic conditions we're in. If we have to go out there
and fight a war, how is this going to impact our communities
disproportionately -- and are we going to have some dire effects
that will be with us for generations?
BARBARA
LEE: Certainly, that's
always the case -- our communities are always disproportionately
represented in the military and we'll be called to serve and
fight. Whenever that happens, whomever it is, we have to be
very careful. We don't want our young men and women put in harm's
way. I am a very patriotic person, and I support the United
States and our government. And I believe that my support for
our country and for our people dictates that I be prudent, that
I not rush to judgment on any decisions, and that we step back
for a minute and realize any impact that this could have on young
men and women of color, and all young Americans as we move forward.
Fighting a terrorist war...I'm not sure our young people are
prepared for that, and we've got to stamp out terrorism in the
world but it's very complicated.
DAVEY D: I've got the sense that people think
that this will be over in a hurry, almost like you're playing
a game, and I'm trying to tell people, that this is real stuff.
You've got people that have committed themselves to dying, and
that's kind of scary.
BARBARA
LEE: We're all in trauma
right now, in a state of disbelief and mourning. A member of
my staff had a family member killed in one of the planes. This
catastrophe has touched the lives of so many people. Going back
to why I said "No, let's use restraint," -- it's for
that reason. My professional training is as a social worker,
and I understand the human psy che, and the community psyche,
and our country's psyche. Right not, were dealing with recovery,
and we're dealing with mourning, and there's no way until we
settle in, should we deal with decisions that could escalate
violence and spiral out of control. We just all must be reasoned
and reasonable about this. When we bring these terrorists to
justice, we have to be pointed and know what we're doing. The
world is a dangerous place.
DAVEY D:
With all the money
that we pay in tax dollars directed toward intelligence gathering,
the CIA, the FBI, the racial profiling at airports and the like,
how could we have someone come in to this country, learn to fly
from our own schools, and fly an airplane for 20, 30 minutes
and not be detected? Was this a breakdown in the intelligence
community?
BARBARA
LEE: Obviously, that
money has not been spent properly and I think that one of the
reasons I did vote for the $40 billion is that there's money
in there to really look at how we increase the public safety
of our people in this country, within the confines of civil liberties.
We have to find that balance. Protecting the public, protecting
the country, and not allowing our civil liberties to be eroded.
That's where we need to put the funding and resources, and that's
why I did support that money. But something went terribly wrong,
and we'll see how these investigations go. But we have to insist
on a full and thorough investigation.
DAVEY D: Do you think with all the concern
right now, we will be finding our civil liberties actually taken
off the paper altogether in the name of national security? Will
people be pulled over, profiled, searched more? If I'm a part
of an organization that says "Peace not war," will
they label me a potential terrorist?
BARBARA
LEE: Certainly we have
to fight against that trend. There are those who would like
to see that happen. They will overreact to a tragedy and use
this opportunity to do just what you said. That's part of the
danger in rushing to judgment. As a branch of the government
that's responsible to the people, it's up to Congress to execute
our Constitutional responsibilities to ensure that there's checks
on policies that could be put in place under the name of national
security. This is very serious.
DAVEY D: You've come from an era of the Black
Panthers, from the Vietnam era, when there were a lot of groups
that found themselves subjected to the Cointel policies of the
FBI. They were harassed by the various government agencies,
from the local police to the CIA, their patriotism was questioned.
If we don't keep that in mind, do you think it might lead to
us just falling in line and maybe not questioning government
when we have a right to do so?
BARBARA
LEE: We better understand
the history, and I'm very on top of my own history with these
agencies and I know what can happen. So we must be vigilant
right now, because under the cloak of national security, many
of our civil liberties could be just wiped off the floor. There
are those of us who are going to fight to make sure that's not
going to happen, but we're also going to fight to make sure justice
is served by making sure that the people and organizations who
did this are brought to justice. We also have to begin to look
at our foreign policy, our diplomatic efforts, and some of the
reasons why we don't engage in dialogue with certain countries
and individuals and organizations. This is a very complex issue
in the US, and we should be right now leading the world in showing
our children how in the face of adversity we respond and minimize
the loss of life. We don't want to see any more people lose
their lives. We cannot tolerate another terrorist attack, and
we certainly cannot tolerate any loss of life any more in our
country, and anywhere in the world.
DAVEY D: Many are painting a picture that,
"if you're not with the US, you're against us. " They
would take a look at your dissenting vote and say, "Congresswoman
Barbara Lee is not patriotic, she's not supporting the president,
she's making it difficult for us to do what we need to do."
How do you respond to that type of criticism?
BARBARA
LEE: People have said
that. And in my response, I tell them that I'm very patriotic.
As a citizen, I have the right to represent a point of view.
That's central to our democracy -- the right to dissent, the
right to provide a different point of view that's out in the
open, in the full view of the American people. I did not make
this decision behind closed doors; I've explained my decision.
I think the beauty of democracy, and one of it's fundamental
principles, is the right to free speech and the right to disagree.
I support the administration in their actions; that's not the
point. Their role is this, they're moving forward. What we
have to understand, is that the Congress is a body that represents
the people in our country. It's up to us to step back and say,
"Okay, now we have an additional responsibility."
We must make sure that the president reports to us, so that we
can report back to our constituents what's going on. You donut
want to not know, do you?
Congress has a very critical role in this. So if I am going
to be patriotic, and I am, and if I am going to be a good American,
which I know I am, I am going to make sure that our democracy
works and I'm going to hold it accountable, and make sure that
it works not only for my constituents, but for the whole country.
You don't want to rush to judgment while we're depressed and
angry and frustrated. That's like herding cattle in one direction.
You want people who are thinking clearly, who are working with
the president, and giving them different ideas and insights.
I'm an African-American woman, I'm on the International Relations
committee. I have a point of view...as an American...that may
be useful when we talk about international terrorism. There
are many people who have different points of view...that's America.
So to those people who say those things, they better check their
own credentials. They may need to become more participatory
in our democracy.
DAVEY D: That's a key word -- participatory.
I come across a lot of people who are waving the flag, but aren't
registered to vote. All this information about foreign policy
and our government's role has been out there, but a lot of people
have ignored it until now. All of a sudden, they're out for
blood, and don't even understand where Afghanistan is and what
it would take to defeat it. This is a country that beat back
Russia, a couple of times. It's not going to be an easy haul,
and I'm afraid people aren't really thinking long term.
BARBARA
LEE: Being patriotic
at this moment in our history means participating in decisions
about the future of our world. It means participating in decisions
that will hopefully bring us to peace, and ensure that these
terrorists are brought to justice and that no man, woman, or
child, ever gets killed in such brutal assaults ever again That's
what participatory democracy is about at this moment. People
should feel understand and feel empowered that it's through their
members of Congress that represent them, that they can make their
voice be heard.
Not just react, but engage.
DAVEY D: People would question, would you acting
on behalf of Barbara Lee or were you acting on behalf of the
Berkeley-Oakland district you represent when you decided to be
that lone dissenting vote against Bush's resolution for war?
BARBARA
LEE: First of all,
this was not a poll-driven vote. This was the most painful vote
I have taken in Congress, really in all 12 years that I've been
in elected office. It was a grueling experience for me. I have
been in many briefings, classified and unclassified. I have
been in so many meetings. I was in the Capitol when the plane
went into the Pentagon, and we had to evacuate. It's been a
nightmare. I went through the intellectual process, through
the fact-gathering, through the policy analysis, looking through
the foreign policy and intelligence and military implications
of our move. It weighed heavily on me. I was not going to the
National Cathedral for the prayer service..because I wanted to
continue in my discussions, and reflect on the resolution that
was coming up. But at the last minute, I decided to go, that
I had to pray over this. I realized I had to settle down and
say some prayers, to try to get some strength to help me through
the rest of the week.
It was a very powerful, very
beautiful prayer service, very painful. I listened to the prayers,
and prayed, and listened to the comments and the sermons. One
of the clergy, very eloquently said, in his prayer, "As
we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore, " And
at that moment, I knew what the right vote was, and what I had
to do. So it was a combination of factors that brought me to
that place. There are very few times when there are votes of
conscience that your moral compass must guide you, very few times
that there's some bottom lines. And this was one of those times.
I talked to my colleagues, and believe me, there are many members
of Congress who feel as I feel, who are raising questions about
not having the President report back on military action. People
are concerned. I think my vote represented my week of deliberations,
my discussions, my thoughts, my analysis, and my conscience,
and I voted 'no.' I believe it was the right vote. I still
say, and I said on the floor that night, "We must step back."
We must allow time for the grieving, and the mourning. Congress
has got to be the body that says, "Let's use some restraint,
lets make sure that our actions lead to what we want to accomplish,
and that's to make sure their are no more attacks on our people
and on our country" We've got to make the most deliberate
strategies that we can that are going to be effective.
DAVEY D: There's been a number of attacks throughout
our country on our Arab brothers and sisters...even on those
who look like they might be Arab. Sadly, some of this abuse
has come at the hands of black and brown folks, who have gotten
caught up in the wave of patriotism that has swept the country.
What are your thoughts on this?
BARBARA
LEE: This is very a
serious problem. We passed a resolution on that same night that
condemned attacks on Arab-Americans and Muslims and all those
who could be under attack as a result of this. What we see now
is an environment of fear. The worst is coming out in people.
We've never had a war on our land before -- other countries
have, the US hasn't. Were vulnerable. When people react in
fear, what do they do? They turn on each other. The person
who looks the wrong way receives the brunt of your anger and
fear. So I'm urging and encouraging young people to please understand
that when these planes crashed into the towers, they killed people
of all colors, ages, races. creeds. It was an equal opportunity
destroyer.
DAVEY D: It just seems a shame that people
who have been persecuted, especially blacks and Latinos, who
have been the brunt of abuse by the military, are turning around
and attacking people in our own communities. Once upon time
Latinos in LA were attacked by US Sailors in what is now known
as the Zoot suit riots. African Americans were at the short
end of the stick in numerous situations and scenarios
BARBARA
LEE: We've got to pause
and understand the moment that we're in. Moving forward, whether
it's on a political level, or in our communities, against each
other, there's some serious implications of this. If we donut
understand that were grieving, we're baffled, we're afraid, this
behavior is going to escalate. I'm trying to help young people
understand who their enemy is and who it is not. In this moment
of all moments, we should be embracing each other. My constituents
are as conflicted and upset in California as people are all over
the East Coast and the country.
DAVEY D: Do you think when you get back to
Bay Area, you'll have some kind of a town hall so that those
people that voted you into office can come on down and build
with you?
BARBARA
LEE: We' re definitely
going to be holding events in our community to try and help sort
though this grieving process. In terms of future direction,
we want to bring some clarity and understanding as to how the
Congress should function when we're in a vulnerable state, when
we've been attacked and what our role is in terms of checks and
balances. I want to do some education and forums and basic discussions
with young people about their fears. I know children are scared
about what they're seeing on TV But the way our country responds
to it will ensure as they grow up that they are able to deal
with their problems in a way that is appropriate. It's important
that they see that rage and war gets out of control and leads
to more violence. We have to be very measured in our response
as we go after the perpetrators of this horror, and make sure
that our children know that in the face of adversity, America
can rise up and be the great democracy that it is, and deal with
all these problems immediately.
DAVEY D: Have you heard from any high ranking
officials about your vote. Also, Bush has two daughters who
are college age...do you think that they would be on the front
line? How do you think it will perceived if 19 and 20 year olds
are being asked to serve this country and his daughters are still
making headlines getting drunk at rat parties??
BARBARA
LEE: That poses the
kind of questions and dilemmas before us. There are many questions
that have to be asked..the kind of terrain ahead of us in a country
we don t know, how much collateral loss will we be inflicting
in terms of innocent women and children? Loss of life is loss
of life. The Congress needs to ask these questions, force the
administration to answer these questions. That does not mean
that we, and I, are not unified. I'm sure I will hear from the
administration, I'm on the foreign affairs committee. I see
Secretary Powell fairly frequently. I haven't talked to him.
Hess been fairly measured in his response, I think Hess trying
to bring some balance to the policy. But in terms of supporting
the President, that Congress has to make sure that he is successful,
that any reaction to this horrible attack does not come back
in terms of any spiraling out of control. If you have nobody
to check that, it could be very scary.
DAVEY D: Congresswoman Lee thank you so much
for taking time out of your day to break it down for us. To reach
Barbara Lee call her at 510-763-0370
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